Dr. Victoria Maizes
Hi Andy.

Dr. Andrew Weil:
Hi Victoria

Dr. Victoria Maizes:
So this must happen to you. But I get asked about integrative medicine for animals all the time. And I always have to say it's not my training.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Right. And it's not the training of most veterinarians, I'm afraid. But we have one today who is trained.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
I'm so excited to be able to learn from them. So let's get Dr. Randy Aronson on.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Okay.



Into Music

Dr. Victoria Maizes
Dr. Randy Aronson is an integrative veterinarian. He graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 1980 and practices at Paws Veterinary Center in Tucson. In 2011, Paws wonOne, the American Animal Hospital Practice of the Year Award. Dr. Aronson is trained in veterinary acupuncture, Chinese herbal medicine and nutrition. He is certified by the Canine Rehabilitation Institute to perform physical therapy on cats and dogs and at hHe uses food, .

00;00;40;29 - 00;00;53;21
Dr. Victoria Maizes
oOzone pulsed electromagnetic therapy, shockwave, laser and underwater treadmill to help attain health and wellness for his patients. Welcome, Randy.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Nice to be here, Victoria.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
So it seems that we probably should start with the obvious. What is integrative veterinary medicine?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Great question. So, integrative veterinary medicine is the combination of the best of Western medicine or allopathic medicine, and then utilizing complementary therapeutics and protocols to bring in what I call the attainment of health and wellness.

Dr. Andrew Weil
I think the demand for integrative veterinary medicine is huge, but I think the supply of people trained to do it is not so great.

Dr. Randy Aronson
It's exactly right Andy, . And, you know, we're in such a paucity right now of veterinarians in general and the veterinary schools don't even have any coursework whatsoever. In fact, I've had to go to Corvallis or to Washington State, even the University of Arizona, and talk to their integrative club. But that's as far as it goes.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Well, as you know, we have a new College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Arizona, and our center is hoping to partner with it and involve you as well in developing an integrativeed veterinary medicine program.

Dr. Randy Aronson
It's very exciting because we've been looking to really spread the word. And as you said, there's so much interest and the public itself is is so clamoring for some of these protocols. It would be great to have educated veterinarians to lead the way.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
So what are the most common reasons that people seek you out to care for their animals?

Dr. Randy Aronson
So I see a tremendous number of second and third opinions on cases where western or allopathic medicine has been utilized. And we all know that many times that will put out a fire, maybe create some more problems, but never attain attaining wellness and longevity. And so most commonly, I see cases for severe skin disease, severe GI disease for cancer, but also people who want to get started on the right path to start their young dogs and cats on protocols that basically will help them live as great of a life span as possible.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
So you mentioned skin conditions. I'm going to bring up my daughter's dog. Wonderful dog. Couldn't stop scratching. And it turned out that he was allergic to chicken. And then it turned out that even though my daughter had gotten rid of any pet food with chicken, the people at her reception desk kept giving him treats that were chicken based.

00;03;51;19 - 00;03;53;29
Dr. Victoria Maizes
So it took a while to really deal with it.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Right. that's a great that's a great example. That's a case that I would normally see and we would recommend a food sensitivity test. Dr. Jeanne Dodds is world renowned and does this testing and it's so much better than some of the food allergy, blood testing that we can do, But we also combine that with something called animal biome, where we're really getting to the foundation of these dogs trying to stop leaky gut syndrome and some of this allergic dermatitis.

00;04;26;09 - 00;04;34;21
Dr. Randy Aronson
And it's usually not just chicken. I mean, we we end up finding that there are sensitivities to alfalfa and some of these foods or a lot of other products.

Dr. Andrew Weil
A lot of my friends are confused about dog food, especially, you know, there's so many different diets recommended from all raw food. Some of these very expensive prepared meals. Some people cook for their dogs.

Dr. Victoria Maizes:
You do.

Dr. Andrew Weil:?
I know. I let them taste everything I could. But, you know, it's it's a big concern. Many people don't know how to interpret the ingredients in dog foods.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Right. And this is a huge problem. And in and, you know, we created this industry of multibillion dollar dry pet foods that have creating tremendous amount of problems in our animals. Just to allude to, most the majority of our pets live to about two thirds of their true lifespan, and the cancer rates are skyrocketing. Golden Retrievers we've seen alone are living are living 50% of their normal life expectancy.

00;05;30;22 - 00;05;58;18
Dr. Randy Aronson
So when you talk about food, there's a food pyramid and obviously fresh whole food is is the best. And then it comes down to things like raw food or freeze driedfreeze-dried raw food. And even when people are selecting dry foods, we recommend complex carb, dry foods. You know, dog has a 0%. Well, cats also 0% requirement for carbs and yet our dry foods, even our best dry foods, are 40 to 50% carbohydrate.

Dr. Randy Aronson
So I recommend there's a number of places where people can look at set diets. The problem, as you alluded to, Andy, is that some of these prepared whole food diets are crazy expensive. And if you have a couple Rhodesian ridge backs running around and you're trying to feed them some of these foods, it's easy to bankrupt the bank on that.

00;06;19;03 - 00;06;20;09
Dr. Randy Aronson
Just doing that alone.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Mm hmm.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
So how did we get to this place where there is so much carbohydrate in our pet food?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Well, we got to it because in the I would say in the seventies - eighties, we created a one stop. “Let's just feed them dry food, put it in a bowl, be able to go out the door” and, you know, at that time it seemed like a logical idea. Our ranch dogs and our farm dogs ate.

00;06;48;08 - 00;07;15;26
Dr. Randy Aronson
We ate. There was no dry kibble, but we now have created this multibillion dollar industry and with it huge problems on our animals. By doing that, just because of the convenience, really, more than anything else. So when I advise a client like Andy’s and he's asking, I give them a lot of alternatives how they can, even if they're using, let's say, one of the better complex carb, how do we get more protein and veggies into these diets to help these animals?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Because that's really the ticket.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Mm hmm.


Dr. Victoria Maizes
You know, some years ago, Andy sent me this really incredible video. It was of a woman named Ana Breitenbach, who's an animal whisperer, and she was working with this large leopard. His name was Diablo and who was unhappy where he was living. And she could somehow understand what he was unhappy about and help correct the situation. What do you think about this idea of an animal whisperer And can the average person learn it?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Absolutely. Outlook, let me tell you a quick short story. Oh, good. National radio show for many years. And there is a woman in Tucson who basically does a lot of animal communication. And I had her on my show talking about certain things. Somebody called and asked. My dog is limping on its right front leg. The veterinarian has taken a number of X-rays of its elbow and shoulder where she thinks the pain is.

And then she stopped him and said, have him X-ray the the right wrist and carpets. The guy called back the next week and said there was a lytic or cancerous lesion in the right carcass, and she nailed it. I've had the same experience with my own dogs, with her. So it's definitely something that can be done. It's definitely something that people can learn.

And there her site is Journey to Healing and it's really a fabulous thing to do. I personally have never taken any of her coursework, but she tells me that I have that ability. Of course, I like to trust my Western trained mind. I forget how many times when I walk in a room that I that I do have that ability.

00;09;16;04 - 00;09;19;07
Dr. Randy Aronson
So I do lean on the things that I've also been taught.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Yeah. Randi, I read a disturbing article just yesterday that the anti-vaxxers are no longer vaccinating their pets. Right. And the real concern is about rabies, of course. But I wonder, you know, how many vaccinations are necessary or any not necessary.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Great question. And one of the things we do at PAWS is we really limit the amount of vaccinations. The way we do that, Andy, is we do titers. We Kansas State University is fabulous for checking distemper, hepatitis and parvo virus, and also rabies titers. So we most of my pet owners after a puppy series or a kitten series, well, we'll check titers starting at a year of age, so we know that they're protected.

00;10;08;10 - 00;10;33;19
Dr. Randy Aronson
But we're not over vaccinating. This is a huge problem. You know, there isn't a person who owns a pet that goes to a veterinarian who yearly doesn't get bombarded with you need to repeat this type, this vaccine or that vaccine. And really it's causing huge problems. So we do know how to know we can look. The big problem like here in Arizona, for example, is that the county won't accept a rabies titer.

00;10;34;03 - 00;10;50;15
Dr. Randy Aronson
You know, if you went to England or Hawaii, which is rabies free, you couldn't get in with a vaccine. You have to have a titer. You have to be able to show them that that dog is protected. So you're absolutely right. As long as we check titers, I feel very comfortable in not administering vaccines.

Dr. Andrew Weil
And one more vaccine question. Is there a vaccine now for Valley Fever?

Dr. Randy Aronson
It's coming.

Dr. Andrew Weil
That's what that's what I've heard for a long time.

Dr. Randy Aronson
I know they've been working on this that, you know, the Center for Valley Fever Studies, I believe it's connected to the Uuniversity, has been working on this with a company, and we keep on hearing that it's coming. We haven't seen it. And I keep on pursuing them. We just don't have it at this point.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Okay.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
So another question that I could ask, by the way, as an integrative physician, I get asked quite frequently. I'm sure you do, too. And you have valid care of animals. And I always have to say I'm not trained. I don't know. But the thing that has come up lately is people keep asking me is there evidence for the use of CBD or maybe cannabis for pain or anxiety in dogs?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Great question, Victoria. So just to let you know, I get asked the reverse question. I do this in myself because everything you're talking about is things that I would love to do for myself. And the answer is usually yes, but I don't tell them that because I don't want to cross that line. Like you don't want to cross the line in veterinarianto better medicine.

00;11;59;17 - 00;12;25;15
Dr. Randy Aronson
Yes, the answer on the CBD is absolute. The problem is, is that everybody and their mother is making CBD products and we're seeing large amounts of things like glylike phosphate and other toxins in some of these products. The recommendation that I make is there is a wonderful surgeon in at Western Reserve University in Phoeenix, Dr. Fossum, who makes a fabulous CBD product.

00;12;25;20 - 00;12;46;05
Dr. Randy Aronson
It's you know, she has it quality checked, it's certified, and it's the one that I recommend the most. Doctor. It's SOCOM FOSSOM and it's a fabulous CBD product. And we use it often for anxiety. We've used it for pain. There are a lot of different applications, but it definitely does help. There's no question.

Dr. Andrew Weil
I think, you know, my female ridgeback has an anxiety disorder which has been getting worse. It's set off by noises, especially thunder. So it's really bad. And in the monsoon season here, I've tried everything and one suggestion I had recently was ketamine. Do you have any experience with that? I think it can be given, you know, intranasal or.…

Dr. Randy Aronson
I have not used that. I know that people have used it and used it to some benefit just because of, you know, basically our DEA regulations and whatnot. It's a little bit tough to both stock and distribute. But I will tell you one thing. You know, I know that you you both know probably know this, but the university is doing a study in humans on the gut brain connection.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Yeah.

Dr. Randy Aronson
We have seen some of these anxiety pets when we will establish what their biome is through that animal biome company and correct it. We're seeing great reductions of some of that anxiety happening. So I do approach it through the back door if I can. It doesn't always work, but it's certainly something. But I don't have any experience with ketamine per se, .

00;13;53;28 - 00;13;54;07
Dr. Randy Aronson
Andy.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Okay.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
So another question I get asked about are the flea collars, which people, of course, don't want fleas in their home, but they also don't want the toxic chemicals around their kids. Right. What do you recommend?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Well, you know, one of my things in my webinar to the public is really to try to eliminate as many toxins as possible. And these topical products are really a concern for me because obviously, not only is the dog or cat exposed, but you're exposed, right? And we absorb these things. I do recommend I Tucson in general doesn't have a huge flea problem.

Dr. Randy Aronson
We do have some tick problems, especially people will go up in the mountains, go to Flagstaff or Prescott or that type of thing. In that situation, many times I am utilizing an oral product that I think is fairly safe. We do do a lot of recommendation for heartworm preventative because we have heartworm big time in Tucson. People don't realize we've even had it.

Paws to indoor cats Positive for Heartworm. So mosquito here. Our coyote population is a reservoir. So I do use an oral heartworm preventative. I don't use ivermectin because many of our dogs have what's called an MDR one gene, and they're very sensitive to it. So I do do that as a preventative, but most of my clients don't use flea and tick products just because we have such a lack of a problem here itself now.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
And how do you incorporate acupuncture into your practice? How do you decide that it's necessary? And I'm you know, it's always intriguing to think about how those incredibly observant people figured out the meridians and people. But how do they figure them out in animals?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Well, Let me tell you a little a slight sidebar. When I started looking at integrative medicine, I wanted to add Chinese herbs to my practice. So I signed up for a course in in Albuquerque through human company, because there wasn't any veterinary products at that point or or uses for Chinese medicine, thinking that I could just go learn about Chinese herbs and put them in my practice.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Then I found that I had to learn the paradigm of Chinese medicine, which then obviously led to, well, since I know Chinese medicine, I've got to use acupuncture because it's great. People have worked on these these, these meridians and these points for years. And there is a there's a group called the International Veterinary Acupuncture Society, and it's well-established where Ladder 23 is RGV for.

And so that's all been worked out really, really well. I got certified in acupuncture in the early nineties and I was wondering like how is a cat going to sit for this? But we have a little trick. We stick a needle in toe on top of their head, which is the calming point. I usually will excuse myself for a few minutes, come back in and I can get my needles placed in all the other areas as well, and they handle it beautifully.

00;17;02;16 - 00;17;15;08
Dr. Randy Aronson
In fact, we have cats that come in and just lay there. They know they're going to get their acupuncture. It's really pretty impressive. So it's been a great advent to our practice and obviously this has been worked out pretty well. Victoria.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Would you comment on rapamycin which has been touted?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Were going to ask you that. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil
That's promoting longevity in dogs.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Yes. So, you know, rapamycin affects the mTOR pathway. There's a lot of evidence on use in humans as far as low dose usage. One of the things that I looked at was I talked to Matt Capelin, who's in Washington. He's now left Washington State. That school he's done so much work in this area. There's an actual cohort study in humans of 330 humans and assessing level of cognitive ability, pain, reaction and in low dose rapamycin, it showed that it improved all of those things.

You know, there's strong evidence in laboratory animals of increasing longevity in mice, and we're now looking at it in dogs. There's a lot there have been a number of dog studies which really show telomere length looks better. The things that we look at as far as aging type markers. So we're using it. And I know, you know, it's to a limited I'm not recommending it to my clients, but if they come and ask me, by all means, I think that there's a huge use for it and I think it's going to be very exciting.

One side note company in Ireland just did a huge study in Cats and found that rapamycin will stop the progression and actually help hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. And that product is FDA approved in 2024. It's coming out for HCM in CATS, which is very exciting. I've also seen Andy it slow the progression of his mango sarcoma, transitional cell carcinoma in dogs.

00;19;03;21 - 00;19;11;26
Dr. Randy Aronson
It doesn't do anything for osteosarcoma, which is a big disappointment because we need something for that. But I think it has a huge future. I'm very excited about it.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
So rapamycin would be a pharmacologic way of extending life. But earlier you mentioned that one of your goals is to help animals live their full lifespan. Can you give us well, what what do you review with pet owners, people who are really motivated to have their animals do as well as they possibly can?

Dr. Randy Aronson
. So I talk about the mnemonic Pets P is proper nutrition and microbiome. E is exercise, is T is training and S is stress reduction. And I go through all of those areas. Of course, my first conversation with owners is always diet and microbiome. We look at those things tremendously, exercise.

00;19;59;04 - 00;20;20;05
Dr. Randy Aroinson
It's been shown that a dog that exercises no rigorous exercise exercise can live up to two and a half times longer than dogs that don't have that. And the same thing goes for cats. It just hasn't been looked at. Training and socialization is so huge and we see so many animals that don't get a chance to have a job, especially a dog.

A dog likes to have something to do. Training is amazing stimulation for their brain, you know, increasing oxytocin decrease in cortisol levels and then stress reduction is just the things we've been talking about. I look at all of these toxins that they could be exposed to, you know, in regular dog food Victoria, the amount of Maillard reaction products can be a hundred times what it is in humans.

00;20;44;25 - 00;21;04;25
Dr. Randy Aronson
The amount of ag is advanced glycosylation and products 30 some times what it is in us. So if we can start eliminating some of those things, we're going to get animals that are going to feel better and obviously live longer and that that's kind of how I approach it through that pet's pneumonic. And it's worked very, very well.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
So I'm wondering if you would be willing to tackle a few common myths and and I'm going to I'm going to pick on you here for a second because you feed your animals something that most people say is not okay to feed dogs. You want to talk about that for a second and want.

Dr. Andrew Weil
You could.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Get me in trouble with Andy.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
No, no, I think it's the reverse.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Yeah. I've always given my dogs a little bit of after dinner d. Dark chocolate, which they love. And, you know, it's a small piece, but they look forward to it and they've been fine with it. And my sense is that there's an idiosyncratic reaction in some dogs to chocolate. It's not that chocolate is toxic for dogs. It's for some dogs.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Yeah, Yeah. It's the theobromine that really seems to cause the problem that we know of in chocolate. And I do think, you know, you know it's, you know, the old comment that everything in moderation is probably acceptable. I won't relay to my clients that you do that so that I don't we're troubled right now, but because we have seen severe chocolate toxicity.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Yes, I know. Yeah.

Dr. Randy Aronson
And but a lot of times it's huge amounts. You know, they've eaten, right? You know, they've eaten a whole Hershey, you know, large Hershey bar or something like that. So.

Dr. Andrew Weil
So Brandy, I had we previously had a Corgi who got into a closet at Christmas and ate seven draw ste chocolate oranges. Right. And the only result was diarrhea for two days.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Right. Well, we escaped that one. That's good. You're right. And I do think there is. I think you're absolutely right. I think it is an idiosyncratic reaction. But, you know, obviously, we don't know which dogs are going to be Those dogs. So I, I try to just tell people not to do it. But in your situation, I would not say that.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Okay. And I've also seen there are other things that I think are myths. One is that avocados are toxic for dogs. It's not true. And I look that up. And you know what the basis of that is, is that the pits are too large. Yeah. Who is going to give a dog a whole avocado, right?

Dr. Randy Aronson
I'm kind of. Listen, avocado is a great source of fat for our dogs. I totally love that. I mean, there's a diet, you know, based on avocados and dogs, you know, So that that is a myth. That's. That's crazy. And the other myth, if I can. Yes, go ahead. Is garlic, you know? You know, garlic allicin is not toxic for dogs.

00;23;31;14 - 00;23;44;06
Dr. Randy Aronson
It's only toxic in in huge amounts. And giving a dog a normal dog, you know, a clove of garlic every so often is phenomenal for their immune system and anti-inflammatory natures. So that's a huge myth, too.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Huh.
?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Now, onions, by the way, are toxic. We see huge mind body anemia problems with onions. So I do stay away from those if I can.


Dr. Andrew Weil
Okay.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Other things that you were thinking of.

Dr. Andrew Weil
macadamia nuts.

Dr. Randy Aronson
I don't know why there would be a problem with those. I've never seen it.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Okay, good.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Yeah. The only thing I would think of is a smaller dog swallowing, you know, a couple of them whole and having some obstruction problem.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Right.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
Um, there's a small number of studies that suggest that animals can experience the placebo effect. Are you familiar with that? And what's your take on that?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Well, I think that what I say basically is that's actually the human, the pet parent placebo effect. It's really not. It's not the pet. I mean, you know, we can give something to a client and say, this is going to do this and that. And I obviously think that we could see that placebo effect in that pet parent by just suggestion, especially with somebody that they trust and whatnot.

00;24;51;20 - 00;24;56;19
Dr. Randy Aronson
I don't think it's a pet placebo effect. I really think it's a it's a human placebo effect.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
What do you think, ACandy?

Dr. Andrew Weil
I agree. I think it's the human pet interaction that produces that.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Yeah.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
you know our pets totally pick up what what we're experiencing how we're feeling I mean hearing stories about some of my senior pet parents who God forbid one of them is dying and the dog never leaving or the cat never leaving, that person's side.

Dr. Randy Aronson
You can't tell me that. They don't know what's going on. They totally experience that. And that energy level is is obviously very well known.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Yes. What do you think of the future of integrative veterinary medicine? And are the schools going to start incorporating some of that information?

Dr. Randy Aronson
Well, hopefully I'll live long enough to see to see that I've been trying. And as you know, you know, here's an interesting thing. Our practice I've been offering to bring on a mentee or an associate veterinarian just to learn what I know. You know, it took me years to put all of this together, just as it did. You, I'm sure.

00;26;33;26 - 00;26;57;06
Dr. Randy Aronson
And Victoria also. And, you know, it's not being taught. So if we can evaluate and establish a program at the U of A that school, if we can start getting some younger people interested, I'm hoping through these types of things, we're going to attract some younger veterinarians that I can teach because I mean, we've got to potentiate this.

00;26;57;06 - 00;27;13;25
Dr. Randy Aronson
I mean, it's it can't go away. It has to it has to stay and it has to be prevalent and it has to be a big part of what we do. Look, what's happened in your world. I mean, you remember when you were a charlatan, basically, You know, I mean, no one would do that. Half the things that you were doing.

00;27;13;25 - 00;27;26;13
Dr. Randy Aronson
And yet, you know, all of it's come to being. And it's also borne out as far as something that it's efficacy. And so that's what I'm looking forward to. I'm doing everything I can to make that happen, and I'm going to continue doing that.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Well, we hope to work with you on that and I'm looking forward to our Ccenter, actively collaborating with our School of Veterinary medicine.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
Thank you so much.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Yeah. So much credence to what we're doing that that that's what that's what's needed.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
Well, thank you so much for your leadership in this world of integrative veterinary medicine. And I'll second Andy. I think it would be wonderful to be able to collaborate. And thank you so much for teaching our listeners about a subject that I don't think is particularly well known.

Dr. Randy Aronson
I'm happy to do it. Also, you know, I'm open to people emailing me questions or things that they might have. I know we'll have that, that some of that information up to some point but happy to do it. Love to come back sometime.

Dr. Andrew Weil
Good.

Dr. Victoria Maizes
Thank you.

Dr. Randy Aronson
Thanks, guys.

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